Cameras no longer functioning as sheriff and commissioners hear more concerns

Ozark County Sheriff Cass Martin informed those in attendance at the regular Monday morning Ozark County Commissioners’ meeting that the demo for the highly controversial Verkada cameras is now over, and he is waiting for the company to come take the cameras back.

This week, several Ozark County residents once again appeared to voice their concerns about the use of Verkada and similar cameras in the county. Although the group was considerably smaller than the 50-plus people in attendance at last week’s meeting, those who did attend came prepared with statements, questions and information from others in the county. The discussion continued even after the regular commission meeting adjourned.

First to speak was Josh Shooff, who was joined by his co-founder of Warriors2US, Donna Nasr.

Shooff, a former officer in the Nashville Metro Police Department, told the sheriff he felt the camera issue was “much grander than just Gainesville. It impacts all of us regardless of where we live…

 “First I want to tell the sheriff that we’re not here against you. There’s not anybody sitting here that is anti-law enforcement. We’re constitutionalists, therefore we believe in you. We support you. We…would be the first ones to stand in line with you on most things. So, I don’t want you to think this is us against you…

“So, with that being said, the camera issue for me, as a studier of, not just the Constitution, but the founders, the framers, the intent, I think that the problem is incurred with general blanketed surveillance over people who have done nothing wrong.”

Shooff went on to say he understood probable cause, the needs for warrants and the ability to obtain a suspect’s location. 

“If I was suspected of a crime…the sheriff can gather the totality of the evidence, to build probable cause,” he said. “We don’t have that here. We have cameras that track everybody regardless of if you’ve done anything wrong or not.”

He informed the commissioners and sheriff that the Verkada camera system is now facing many lawsuits for its “information being obtained through nefarious means, the system being hacked” and several other reasons. He also brought out that several communities themselves were facing similar lawsuits. “I don’t think this county could sustain that kind of a blow.”

He also told about a 30-day audit in the Los Angeles Police Department that led to 1,600 misread license plates and several false arrests.

“You are now not innocent until proven guilty. You are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent…That’s not the way the system was built. That’s not the purpose. That’s not the intent of what our founders wanted.”

“These cameras…have the license plate readers on them,” responded Sheriff Cass Martin. “It doesn’t give the information when you drive by. There is a lot of difference between the Flocks and Verkada. I’m not for Flocks.”

He then gave reasons why he wants some kind of system that would make it easier for the sheriff’s department to solve crimes. 

“In the last six or seven months, we’ve had about five or six burglaries in this area, and all of our suspects have not been from this county. I was talking to different business owners that were being hit,” the sheriff explained. “Our business owners, they can’t be hit over and over again [because] at a certain point…”

“It’s unsustainable,” said Shooff.

Martin said he was speaking with one of the business owners about something that could be done to help prevent the repeated break-ins the business had been subject to when the Verkada cameras came up in the conversation. The sheriff said that even though the business has security cameras, the photos of the vehicles involved were so pixelated they were unable to tell the make and model of the car. He said that after some research, he reached out to Verkada to demo the camera system.

He assured those in attendance that the cameras were not connected to any database outside of the sheriff’s department. “It’s not connected to MULES or the Department of Motor Vehicles or anything like that. So it has no features to where it can tell me ‘Hey, this information here, it’s a stolen vehicle.’ It doesn’t have that… 

“I looked at it. I demoed it, and that’s it. I’ve yet to go any further with it. It needs to be talked about through all the communities to see just exactly where we want to go with it. I don’t believe that we need anything like Flocks ever in Ozark County…but I think that there needs to be some type of security that we can try to put in place that works for everybody.”

“So after the 30-day trial [the cameras] will go back, and no money has been spent?” asked Shooff.

The sheriff confirmed there was no money spent on the cameras during the demo and that the trial period was over. “But, if the business owner decides to keep it on the property, I can’t stop him. That would be up to the business owner and…for him to maintain.”

Cass later explained that the cameras were never connected to a wifi network and were only used over a cellular internet connection. “That’s how you are able to connect to the camera and see whatever you need to see.

Reading statement from 

those in attendance

Michelle Ridgway then read a statement to the sheriff explaining that they were not complaining about him.

“Cass, there are many that would complain about the sheriff’s department, no matter what you do. It’s easy for someone to dismiss what we think, believing that we are criminal [etc]…for wanting to preserve our constitutional rights. So, let me tell you a little bit about those who stand before you.”

She then went on to describe several who contributed to the statement and questions and were in attendance at the meeting.

“None standing before you today have a criminal background or ill will to any public servant.”

Ridgway then explained that she had spoken with a representative of West Plains Propane who told her the company decided not to keep the camera on their property after the sheriff’s department demo was over because it already had its own monitoring system which covers all of their property. She said the representative said “not an inch of our property is not monitored by our own cameras,” so why they pay for it?

“You told the citizens that the cameras are not shared with other agencies or placed into a shared law enforcement camera network. But the discovery packet shows correspondence where the state can have access, as well as Jason Wazowski with South Central Drug Task Force and can be revised as needed.”

“We are part of the South Central Drug Task Force,” the sheriff clarified. “Deputies did not have access to these cameras, just me and Jason Wazowski.”

“And the state,” said Ridgway.

“Well, he works for South Central Drug Task Force, which is our drug eradication for Ozark County,” said Martin.

“But in your statement you specified three people,” Ridgway responded.

“In our department,” said Martin.

“So when you named those and it did not include [Wazowski], it appears to us [like you were hiding it].Do you see what I mean?

“You said that you paid for the equipment for the department surveillance trial [with] a government grant and attributed the funding sources to the Department of Health and Senior Services via reallocated state funds...”

Martin assured those in attendance that there were no funds from any grant used. “I think that there was a misunderstanding,” explained Presiding Commissioner Terry Newton. “We were talking about cameras and everything got kind of jumbled [when we were talking about it].”

Comparison of Verkada and Flock

After the sheriff once again assured the attendees that he has no intention of ever using Flock cameras in Ozark County, Ridgway reminded him that Verkada cameras have similar abilities. 

“I understand that you have good intentions. I believe that. I believe that you are a man of honor, but do you acknowledge that Verkada cameras are capable of a lot more?”

“Verkada as well as all of these [cameras have] the same flaw,” added Roman Ridgway. “All of these camera companies are backed by the same evil people. The sinister things they do with your information, it’s bad.”

“It is clear based on the positioning of theses cameras, particularly the one at Miller’s (Kountry Store, at the junction of Highways J and 160), that the goal is surveilling and tracking people’s movements on the road,” Michelle Ridgway continued. “The optic to the public is that there is an evasion of legal responsibility by saying that the businesses own the cameras, but you have access to them…Do you see how that doesn’t present well?

“You said we are not using these cameras to track day to day movements. And you also said these are not the ones that track...”

“...And you also said these are not the ones that track. The information obtained through the Sunshine [Law] request show that the system is capable of searching via a tag number, creating a record of citizens traveling habits that is time stamped. That is also confirmed on Verkada’s website. How is that not creating a log of our day to day movements?”

Martin said the cameras are able to get a clear picture of license plates, but he said it was no different than if he were to sit in the parking lot at Miller’s store and see the tags on the vehicles that drove by. However, because Ozark County is not able to put a deputy at most roads 24 hours a day, this would give the county more ability to help if certain emergency situations arise and to help solve more crimes.

“So, if there were a situation, say if there were a break in…kidnapping…or lost child… if there was an inkling of being able to capture just a little bit of information to be able to run with…that would be something that could be useful in Ozark County, do you agree?” he asked.

“I do agree,” said Ridgway. “But is it worth the cost that comes with it? Is it worth the cost to all of us. And let’s talk about statistics. You said four to five robberies this year. Does that really justify these kind of actions? I don’t feel that they do.”

“I see where you’re coming from,” the sheriff replied, “but my job is to protect everybody in Ozark County not just this selected few, not just these people over here but everybody.

“Business owners I’ve heard say it’s not worth it to put $4,000 into trying to fix [the business] after spending multitudes of money to fix this store up and then [have it broken] into constantly. To me, I value their (willingness to) come into Ozark County to be here.”

“But their security falls on them,” said Shooff. “It’s private property. It would be like saying that we’re going to provide security to [one business] but the other 16 businesses in the county that are also at the same risk and we’re not going to provide cameras for them.

“Benjamin Franklin said, ‘Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety,’” Shooff continued. “I think the risk far outweighs the reward.”

“As far as what outweighs what…” said Eastern District Commissioner Jim Britt, “being on the side of law enforcement, if you have a silver alert… human trafficking… If we find that one individual who we [might] find hours later dead in their car because we couldn’t find them [sooner without cameras]. If we find that one person, does that outweigh the fact that you are uncomfortable going by a camera? I’m sorry. I don’t agree with that. If it saves one life, I don’t know how you outweigh that with anything.”

“But if it saves one life but it makes 10 mistakes?” asked Shooff. “Because, ultimately, the constitution is very clear. You can’t create ‘what if’ situations.”

“But that’s what you’re doing,” said Britt. “Every scenario you’re bringing up is a ‘what if.’”

Shooff then said the Los Angeles audit of their camera system was not a what-if scenario. “That 1,600 mistakes are not ‘what-if.’ The 160 false arrests are not ‘what-if’.”

Difference of camera systems

“You keep referencing that Verkada is different than Flock,” said Dana Williams. “I understand that there are some differences. But I’d like to know from your understanding, what is the difference between the two?”

“Flock is open, so that if you pay the subscription, you can look at any camera. You can view those cameras. Versus you pay for the subscription. This is your camera, and you control what is on that camera.”

“I understand that the integration is different,” said Williams before going on to explain that regardless of what the owner of the camera sees, the information the camera catches is still stored in the Verkada system and can be accessed “all the way to when the camera was installed.”

Donna Nasr concurred saying that she had read the end of the user agreement, and the fine print said that all the information from the cameras was essentially the property of the Verkada company.

The meeting eventually moved from the Ozark County Courtroom to the commissioners’ meeting room for a smaller discussion with the sheriff.

During that discussion, several possible solutions were proposed that many felt would not be as invasive to their rights such as the Scout traffic cameras in Kansas City. The sheriff said he would look into other alternatives to the Verkada cameras.

Ultimately, those in attendance said they appreciated the time the sheriff and commissioners took to hear their concerns and were encouraged by their interactions.

A town hall meeting is currently scheduled for 3 to 7 p.m. Saturday, Sept. 12 at the Isabella VFW just off Highway 160.